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An Invite from the SEPF
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  An Invite from the SEPF
by: Staffe, 13-08-2010 11:36 AM (#1)

POSTED ON BEHALF OF DEREK AHERN

Further to the earlier post by Maxi regarding the SPA choice policy, as current chairman of the Scottish Eightball Pool Federation I would like to take this opportunity to formally invite The SPA to a meeting with the SEPF to discuss the future of Eightball/Blackball pool in Scotland.
We can all speak about and argue on websites about the pros and cons for and against the
WEPF/EEPF/WPA/EBF for the next 20 years and will get nowhere.
I believe that Maxi has hit the nail on the head and by dropping your choice policy everything is opened up to everyone. Some may think this is a selfish opinion but it is not.
The SEPF was formed 15 years ago to give all/any player that could hold a cue an equal opportunity to play pool at whatever level they choose. This philosophy has not changed and is still what the federation promotes.
We in Scotland cannot change what happens at World level but we can change/fix/organise
what happens in our own country.
I will be in Stirling for the Rileys 5 Man Team event next month and will be happy to discuss
further with anyone, but still would like to leave an open invite to the SPA to attend a proper organised meeting where both parties can discuss the ongoing issues and maybe come up with some answers and solutions for the people that matter YOU the players.

Thank you for your time and I await your response.

Derek Ahern
Chairman
SEPF

email : derek.sepf@hotmail.co.uk
Staffe



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Location: Aberdeen

RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: lumie, 13-08-2010 11:39 AM (#2)

here here
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RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Starrypotter, 13-08-2010 12:29 PM (#3)

Derek ,

Have to say fair play to you for this and lord knows i hope this can be a stepping stone to the removal of the choice policy.
I am from dunfermline and am probably affected by this more so than others. We have a county divided by the rule set and this definately hinders our county teams at a national level.
Its about time for change.
Jone5y
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RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Bash, 13-08-2010 12:34 PM (#4)

Question. As a business, if you have 95% of the market - and your competitors are frozen out, why would you choose to let them back ina nd rejuvinate their organisation by allowing your "customers" to buy from the competitor.

The only reason I could see would be if there was something material that the SPA as an organisation could gain from doing so.

We'd be talking about 100 players or so that would play events (if they would all travel), we'd then be talking about what, a dozen leagues?

Clearly the dropping of the choice policy would be to the benefit of the SEPF - as it would vastly increase their pplayer base for events. Please help us understand what the benefit to the SPA would be?
 
Serve no master, but your own ambition.
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RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Staffe, 13-08-2010 01:12 PM (#5)

Bash, I think your 95% is a bit optimistic. We can all fudge about with figures if we want. At the end of the day the SEPF are not going away, as has been stated on many occasions their creation was to enable players of all standards to play pool and that is still their aim. If you speak to many of the top people in the SEPF they actually hold the SPA in quite high esteem. All they are trying to do is let ALL the players play in any competition they choose. The SPA may not benefit at all by dropping the choice policy, however the people they represent, THE PLAYERS would. What are they afraid of ????? Its not as though everyone is going to jump ship is it ??? I have been watching the forums a lot lately and I know a lot of the WR boys like playing in BB comps and if I am not mistaken there is a few of the BB lads would play WR comps. Why should the SPA stop themSad
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RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: maxi, 13-08-2010 01:17 PM (#6)

Bash, how long has the choice policy been in place?

Do we have a unified game in Scotland?

So facts prove that the choice policy will NOT create ONE ruleset in Scotland or indeed anywhere in the world.

So if something is proven not to work why do we continue?

You know and I know and everyone else knows that Scotland in regards to Blackball are miles in front of any other nation in regards to organisation, tournaments etc.

So why not open the door to the SEPF, especially when they have offered to open discussions to take the game forward.

Who knows what can be achieved by working together, perhaps Scotland could lead the way in bringing the two rulesets together for the rest of the World to take note of.
 
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RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Staffe, 13-08-2010 01:28 PM (#7)

Posted on Behalf of Derek Ahern, Maxi any idea why Derek can't get registered on your site ?????

Bash,

Thanks for your comments.
This is why I beleive we need to have a meeting.
My proposal and I believe Maxi's is put forward to benefit the players not either
of the 2 Associations.
We have at present 4 regions who all run tours and if combined
on one tour would total going by this year approx 200 players.
The reason we have regional tours is that the players will attend
more events if they are localised as they have no need to travel.
Why do the SPA or the SEPF have to gain anything as long as the players
gain by having more prestigous events to play in whether it be WR or B/B
or both.
What the players from the SPA will have access to is what you guys have
speaking about on your website for the last few weeks.
30,000 - 40,000 Prize funds at Televised events.
Ask Jayson,Pat Holtz,Goobz etc if they would like this.

If these players amongst other can play in either discipline I beleive they would.
Wales have done it and still run as 2 organisations but try to work together.
What is stopping Scotland from doing the same.
Sorry I cant reply myself as I cant get registered on your site.

Derek
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Location: Aberdeen

RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Bash, 13-08-2010 01:29 PM (#8)

I think post mortem is a shade premature Maxi.

In my humble opinion the SPA would only have become very attractive to outside players in the last few years, maybe 2-3 tops. It was at this point that we had a virtual explosion of comps and the available prizemoney at various levels increased.

We can see that a number of boys from the SEPF are interested in playing in BB events already - as your tour atests to. So why not keep it going?



Staffe,

You have said twice now that, "....their [The SEPF] creation was to enable players of all standards to play pool and that is still their aim." So I assume from that you believe that is not the aim of the SPA?

Furthermore, I believe that a dropping of the choice poilcy would instantly benefit 2 groups of people; SEPF players, and the top SPA players. The former would have more comps to play in, and the latter would have more pots to hunt and a way into the Worlds in Blackpool.

I, speaking personally, am not inclined to pander to either set at the cost of segmenting the game yet further. My point being that the majority, by some distance, of Scotland currently plays only Blackball rules - by dropping the choice policy all you would do is level out that imbalance.

It's not a formula for growth at all.
 
Serve no master, but your own ambition.
Bash



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RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: maxi, 13-08-2010 01:34 PM (#9)

Staffe wrote:
Posted on Behalf of Derek Ahern, Maxi any idea why Derek can't get registered on your site ?????


We get between 50-60 spam accounts being registered every day, the consequence of this is you go thru deleting accounts where the name doesn't mean much, so all I can think of is that the username didn't alert one of the mods to it being a proper person.

If he cares to register again I will keep an eye out for it and activate it.
 
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SPA Scottish Doubles Champions 2013
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maxi
Fingers crossed!


Posts: 14981
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RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: maxi, 13-08-2010 01:40 PM (#10)

Your contradicting yourself here Bash, firstly you say:-

Bash wrote:
Furthermore, I believe that a dropping of the choice poilcy would instantly benefit 2 groups of people; SEPF players, and the top SPA players.


Bash wrote:
My point being that the majority, by some distance, of Scotland currently plays only Blackball rules - by dropping the choice policy all you would do is level out that imbalance.


How can a few top SPA players going to play WR comps as well as SPA comps level out the imbalance? I'm extremely confident you will find far more SEPF players playing in BB events than the other way around.

And if it was all one sided Bash, what about the existing SEPF leagues, if there was no choice policy these leagues could also pay affiliation to the SPA as well as to the SEPF and participate in Superleague events at both rulesets.
 
www.scottishpool.com/images/wc2.jpg
www.lastbidz.com
http://twitter.co...
SPA Scottish Doubles Champions 2013
World Champion 2012 (Scotland Seniors Team)
Strathclyde League Singles Champion 2012
Red Triangle Singles League Champion 2012
Superleague 11 & 15 Team Champions 2012 (Team G)
Superleague 11s Challenge Champions (captain)
World Speed Pool Seniors Champion 2010
Paisley Singles Champion 2010
European Masters Senior Team Champions 2010, 2011
Superleague 15's Champions Team G 2009
Belhaven Grand Final Champion 2007
maxi
Fingers crossed!


Posts: 14981
Joined: 06.04.10
Location: Glasgow
Age: 48

RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Staffe, 13-08-2010 02:03 PM (#11)

Bash wrote:
I think post mortem is a shade premature Maxi.

In my humble opinion the SPA would only have become very attractive to outside players in the last few years, maybe 2-3 tops. It was at this point that we had a virtual explosion of comps and the available prizemoney at various levels increased.

We can see that a number of boys from the SEPF are interested in playing in BB events already - as your tour atests to. So why not keep it going?



Staffe,

You have said twice now that, "....their [The SEPF] creation was to enable players of all standards to play pool and that is still their aim." So I assume from that you believe that is not the aim of the SPA?

Furthermore, I believe that a dropping of the choice poilcy would instantly benefit 2 groups of people; SEPF players, and the top SPA players. The former would have more comps to play in, and the latter would have more pots to hunt and a way into the Worlds in Blackpool.

I, speaking personally, am not inclined to pander to either set at the cost of segmenting the game yet further. My point being that the majority, by some distance, of Scotland currently plays only Blackball rules - by dropping the choice policy all you would do is level out that imbalance.

It's not a formula for growth at all.


Never assume Bash Grin

The SEPF have made a genuine offer to sit down and talk.
What harm can it do if the SPA genuinely want what is best for the players
Staffe



Posts: 300
Joined: 01.04.10
Location: Aberdeen

RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Bash, 13-08-2010 02:54 PM (#12)

maxi wrote:
Your contradicting yourself here Bash, firstly you say:-

Bash wrote:
Furthermore, I believe that a dropping of the choice poilcy would instantly benefit 2 groups of people; SEPF players, and the top SPA players.


Bash wrote:
My point being that the majority, by some distance, of Scotland currently plays only Blackball rules - by dropping the choice policy all you would do is level out that imbalance.


How can a few top SPA players going to play WR comps as well as SPA comps level out the imbalance? I'm extremely confident you will find far more SEPF players playing in BB events than the other way around.

And if it was all one sided Bash, what about the existing SEPF leagues, if there was no choice policy these leagues could also pay affiliation to the SPA as well as to the SEPF and participate in Superleague events at both rulesets.


Not at all.

The SEPF will benefit from the extra players having a go at SEPF events. The vast majority of those players will not benefit from playing in more events - they'll just be pool buts, or curious.

The Top players will win cash or the chance to play at Blackpool.



The number of players coming over from the SEPF into SPA events will be smaller as a % of total players, than the SPA going to SEPF as a % of SEPF players. So that adrresses your first paragraph.


The Super's events are full as they stand. So what are we looking to add here? Would we be looking at dropping team sizes to take more teams? We can't get any bigger venues...... as I understand it. So we'd get 50 a league for affiliation - is that the draw here Maxi?
 
Serve no master, but your own ambition.
Bash



Posts: 4530
Joined: 10.12.07
Location: Lanarkshire

RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Bash, 13-08-2010 02:58 PM (#13)

Staffe wrote:
Never assume Bash Grin

The SEPF have made a genuine offer to sit down and talk.
What harm can it do if the SPA genuinely want what is best for the players


Did Ross and others not attend various SEPF meetings in the last handful of months trying to get areas to join the SEPF.....

I see this as nothing more as positioning and stirring.

"Sit down and talk", "if the SPA genuinely want what is best for the players" are inflamatory phrasings designed to engender support from those who are not aware of the landscape. It's poor.


I can see the motivation for the SEPF. I can see the motivation for the Top Players. I cannot see why this is good for the SPA in general.

How about a counter proposal? The SEPF fold. Take positions on a combined association for Scotland. That association then sends teams to both worlds..... and if the associations do not accept that, they get no Scottish representation.
 
Serve no master, but your own ambition.
Bash



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Location: Lanarkshire

RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: maxi, 13-08-2010 03:04 PM (#14)

I never said there would be more players come from WR to play in BB comps than the other way around as a total percentage of players so don't try and add caveats.

My statement is open to a wager if you want. I bet that if the choice policy is dropped that we will see more SEPF members participating in SPA events than we see SPA members playing in SEPF events?

Strange that you only say the SPA top players will 'benefit' due to them picking up prizemoney but ALL SEPF members will benefit from having more tournaments to play in regardless of how good they are?

Are the superleague events full Bash?

Maybe we can grow the membership to such a level that we need to find a new venue which can hold more teams and tables.

The SEPF and SPA working together rather than against each other can only benefit the players. I think everyone can see this but you Bash.
 
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RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Bash, 13-08-2010 03:23 PM (#15)

maxi wrote:
I never said there would be more players come from WR to play in BB comps than the other way around as a total percentage of players so don't try and add caveats.


I'm adding nothing. You tried to add this point, and I have corrected you.

maxi wrote:
My statement is open to a wager if you want. I bet that if the choice policy is dropped that we will see more SEPF members participating in SPA events than we see SPA members playing in SEPF events?


Take those numbers as a % of total entrants and we'll have a friendly 10 on it.

maxi wrote:
Strange that you only say the SPA top players will 'benefit' due to them picking up prizemoney but ALL SEPF members will benefit from having more tournaments to play in regardless of how good they are?


Correct. The average to good SEPF player will have MANY more events to compete in. This is good for them. There are also MANY more large events that they can compete in. It's not hard to understand that if you address (for Staffe's benefit) 15% of the market, and then you get the chance to address 100% then it's a good thing for you.

And the top SPA players will not doubt do well in some events - adding to their ability to pick up more money.

maxi wrote:
Are the superleague events full Bash?


I believe that the 15's and 11's events have been over subscribed for some years now. Remember the ballots?!

maxi wrote:
Maybe we can grow the membership to such a level that we need to find a new venue which can hold more teams and tables.


That would be awesome - what's your vision? The SECC and 100 tables?

maxi wrote:
The SEPF and SPA working together rather than against each other can only benefit the players. I think everyone can see this but you Bash.


As I said, this is to the benefit of the top SPA players and the SEPF. No-one else. How does further diving the membership help unify the game? I mean, have you actually read what you are typing?
 
Serve no master, but your own ambition.
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Location: Lanarkshire

RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: HUTCHIE, 13-08-2010 03:25 PM (#16)

Pool players aren't concerned regarding politics but unfortunately continually are effected by them,as in this case.Surely the choice policy is in breach of individuals freedom of choice?

If people prefer either ruleset for one reason or another surely it is their prerogative?I can only see positives for both organisations if choice policy is abolished,first and foremost for the players who should be the main concern in this issue?
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RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: maxi, 13-08-2010 03:35 PM (#17)

Bash wrote:

maxi wrote:
Are the superleague events full Bash?


I believe that the 15's and 11's events have been over subscribed for some years now. Remember the ballots?!



Yes a ballot to see which teams went to the A team event as B teams and which weren't.....

I can only talk about facts since around 2002 or 2003 and since that time NO SUPERLEAGUE EVENT HAS BEEN FULL WITH A TEAMS ONLY. FACT.

Perhaps you will remember just a few months ago when Ross had to call round various leagues etc just to try and FILL the Super 11 A event at Craig Tara because it was short of something like 2 or 3 teams......

Selective memory I think.

My vision is not the SECC, but a caravan park with a venue large enough to hold 32 tables would be enough I think to hold BOTH A and B events.
 
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RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Bash, 13-08-2010 04:09 PM (#18)

Who's adding things now??! I said that the Super's events have been full for some years now - and now you start bring in points with regards to what teams are entering??!

Wake up, neebs.
 
Serve no master, but your own ambition.
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Location: Lanarkshire

RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Bash, 13-08-2010 04:10 PM (#19)

HUTCHIE wrote:
Pool players aren't concerned regarding politics but unfortunately continually are effected by them,as in this case.Surely the choice policy is in breach of individuals freedom of choice?

If people prefer either ruleset for one reason or another surely it is their prerogative?I can only see positives for both organisations if choice policy is abolished,first and foremost for the players who should be the main concern in this issue?


With an opinion like that, you'll probably be from Fife!
 
Serve no master, but your own ambition.
Bash



Posts: 4530
Joined: 10.12.07
Location: Lanarkshire

RE: An Invite from the SEPF
by: Staffe, 13-08-2010 04:18 PM (#20)

u
Bash wrote:
Staffe wrote:
Never assume Bash :D

The SEPF have made a genuine offer to sit down and talk.
What harm can it do if the SPA genuinely want what is best for the players


Did Ross and others not attend various SEPF meetings in the last handful of months trying to get areas to join the SEPF.....

I see this as nothing more as positioning and stirring.

"Sit down and talk", "if the SPA genuinely want what is best for the players" are inflamatory phrasings designed to engender support from those who are not aware of the landscape. It's poor.


I can see the motivation for the SEPF. I can see the motivation for the Top Players. I cannot see why this is good for the SPA in general.

How about a counter proposal? The SEPF fold. Take positions on a combined association for Scotland. That association then sends teams to both worlds..... and if the associations do not accept that, they get no Scottish representation.


Bash, what gives you the right to even suggest the SEPF should fold, do you know anything about what is going on with them just now. no is the answer.

Jog on mate , I am fed up listening to your onesided, blinkered view :P
 
Edited by Staffe 13-08-2010 04:20 PM
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